[archanglmikel]

Ok I'm not an expert, And I'm sure I've missed a thing or two on the subject. As far as I read into it a hammer marker must perform the following; maintain a high Rof, at or above 20 bps.; it must do this with out exceeding the 15 bps per barrel limit. thus multiple barrels.; it must be fired in simi-automatic mode only by separate triggers for each barrel.; a separate triggering mechanism(i.e. firestorm crank) is allowed. This being true why has nobody ever marketed a purpose built hammer marker? The typical hammer is the double trouble, effective but essentialy two whole markers frankinstiened together. Bulky, awkward, and expensive. Then there is the Nasty series from Palmer, but as far as i have seen they only have a single trigger, and thus do not qualify. I haven't ran into any other qualifying markers save a few hand built custom pieces, nothing mass marketable. markers are designed and built everyday to meet specific tournament rules and the SPPL should receive the same treatment. I envision some thing milled from a single large block with two bolt, a pair of triggers in a single grip, an integrated crank system, and a single ASA. Any number of marker producers could pull this off, but none has yet. I guess I'll sum this rant up by asking if anyone knows why manufacturers haven't tried yet?

[lonegunm4n]

looks like someone is: http://www.scenariod...es/multigun.htm

[archanglmikel]

lonegunm4n, on Oct 21 2008, 09:01 AM, said:

looks like someone is: http://www.scenariod...es/multigun.htm

These are really good combination markers but they are still just separate markers moded together. plus the trigger systems he uses wouldn't pass sppl tournament rules, as he sets them with a single trigger to fire them. besides these are hand built to order, and not really a production line.

[RogueShooter]

There aren't any because look at how busy this forum is.... with the current state of the economy the Hammer is very endangered creature. I turned in my DT's for other reasons (mainly that I have come to loathe the A5 at higher than 10bps lol), but hope to be returning to the scene soon with a new concoction.... Just going to take some time. But in short, you'll probably never see a dedicated hammer marker because there simply isn't enough interest. Most people I know and play with can barely afford a case or two each time they go out, much less the 4-6+ a Hammer would most likely go through. And even if they DID make one, it would still be expensive because it would be expensive to make since when it comes to production, the more you build, the cheaper it becomes to produce them. Its not cheap to build small lots of markers that only sell to a select group of individuals. Ask anyone who's tried to get manufacturers to build small runs of their custom mods....

[Iron__Man]

well the Dt is the dedicated marker system because lets face it, whenever has anyone other than a hammer or tank carried one? that goes for all multi marker systems IMO. the Dt and quadzilla are simply the best combination of whoopage, field legality, and simplicity. if someone did make a single bodied multi barrel firing system it would have to be something like the new scenario dreams minigun. or the trion. but the reaosn a single marker system hasnt been developed is because there is such a limited market, the R&d would be insanely expensive, and there is a tiny market for it. the typhoon is awesome, ut from what i understand is still more expensive than a DT.

i have seen some other systems, but the field legality comes into question with the firing of 2 markers from an egrip.

i definitely know what you mean when you talk about being an endangered species. i havent played almost all summer because of paint prices, scheduling, and gas. it costs alot more now than it did 6-8 months ago to go to a scenario and shoot 6-8 cases. but i think the winter season is definitely comeback time for the infamous paintball viking. not to mention ive been consumed with my other project, the mech. (which i dont care if the mods dont like, because i plan to be on the cover of a paintball magazine in a couple months. )

[betasniper]

how much cheaper(or more expensive) would a purpose built hammer gun be compared to a DT made by yourself?

[Iron__Man]

it really all comes down to the cost of materials. you'd have to get the machinery to produce it (mill the bodies, parts,) and the bankroll to research and patent it, not to mention selling cost. itd be like starting your own business. the only drawback is that there are already products that do the same thing on the marker for cheaper, and easier. add that to the fact that there's a severely limited market for the product (rich full auto junkies like mahself), and there you go.

the minigun from scenario dreams is 3 ions, and a bunch of the same work im talking about, and its about as much as a used car, 2500 bones. so yea, i dont think you'd see that many players shelling out that kind of cash when there's alreayd enough of the mamby pamby "an ego or electro marker can already shoot that fast"... and if we have that argument again, im gonna lose it.

[Custom Cowboy]

archanglmikel, on Oct 21 2008, 08:43 AM, said:

markers are designed and built everyday to meet specific tournament rules and the SPPL should receive the same treatment.

That is where the issue comes up. The SPPL is not a serious tournament league. No serious player views it as a serious league, and the way they run it, they aren't helping themselves to progress into serious league status. You don't spend R&D time and money(aka, money and money) on a specialty item for something that doesn't have a very promising future. The DT is a specialty item for people who are really into specialty items. Look at the turnout for SPPL. Its getting worse. I won't come out and say my views on why its getting worse, because they are harsh and would probably sound rather rude, so I will just leave it at the fact that the SPPL isn't a growing venture and no manufacturer would look at dumping money into something that is only viable in a small, non-growing segment of the sport.

[DOC92]

I just about fainted when I heard the cost of getting the prototype Double Trouble kit made. The cost of getting the firestorm crank first produced would give most people a heart attack and send them to a mental institution. R&D is outrageous expensive and getting all the patents filed is a gigantic headache. I checked into prototyping a DT kit for the X7 last year......screw that. Not worth it to make 5-6 sales.
Secret to saving money while using a DT or Quadzilla is to find the inexpensive/BYOP games like the Free Finale, Wayne's BYOP games and a few others. There's no way I'm shooting 12 cases at $75 per case.

[archanglmikel]

I didn't mean an individual should start a marker line from scratch themselves. but a larger marker company such as Spyder, jt, viewloader, or brass eagle would already have R&d staff, and could use internal part of their own shelves. they could basically just take the measurements they use in existing lines and double mill an over sized block. the trigger assembly is really the only part that needs alot of r&d.

[Iron__Man]

dude, you dont get it. the only way you're going to see what you're talking about is the typhoon, or build your own. PERIOD. major marker companies WILL NOT spend ANY money on the subject. they would probably laugh at you if you told them the idea face to face once you bring up exactly how much it would cost, versus the market. it ISNT cheap to develop. if it was, then you'd do it. oh, whats that? it would cost how much money? and how much time and man power? how much to copyright and patent it? how much to market it? how much for shipping? how much for materials? ok then.... now you see where i'm going with this.

that "little" bit of R&d that you call it is a waste of money to them. sad, maybe, true, definitely.

you might as well give up on the idea, or build your own. and even if you did it wouldnt be much different at all from a Dt or quad, because it still has to be field legal. meaning semi auto. some fields might let you use it otherwise or with a cap, but thats the beauty of the DT. its universally legal, and hence one of the ONLY makers of the type that is, other than the quadzilla.

[archanglmikel]

look i'm just saying if a manufacturer produced a line that brought the cost of the hammer marker type under $300 we would see an explosion in the genre. your right of course, right now no one is going to try anything new. whenever the economy restabilizes this is potential market. nor do i think this will replace D.T.s or typhoons, it would be like a hammer starter pack. no one sticks with their first marker long if they find paintball to be their calling. in addition the walmart impulse buy factor of an low end crank operated gun would be noticeable.

[Iron__Man]

ok, now i see where you're goin with it. i wasnt flaming before, i was ont he track that you were thinking of a premium paint slinger. but low end could be done like that. the only problem then is the cost of paint. if we could get that down, then everyone would be more open to the twin setup.

[archanglmikel]

no arguments there. paint prices hurt more than a monster ball to the jewels! even cheap paint isn't cheap enough these days. the only solution there is to avoid field paint only games. to many fields bank on that alone and over price it to cover everything else.

[Lament]

archanglmikel, on Oct 23 2008, 11:07 AM, said:

I didn't mean an individual should start a marker line from scratch themselves. but a larger marker company such as Spyder, jt, viewloader, or brass eagle would already have R&d staff, and could use internal part of their own shelves. they could basically just take the measurements they use in existing lines and double mill an over sized block. the trigger assembly is really the only part that needs alot of r&d.

Let's look at those companies, shall we? You have Kingman (Makers of the Spyder markers), Viewloader/Brass Eagle, and JT. Of the four companies, only Kingman is going to really spend any time and money to R & D anything new. The other three market a product (If I am correct, they are all made for them by someone else) that sells in WalMart's, K-Marts, and other lower end sporting goods stores. Simply starter guns, and I tend to use that term loosely. Now what is Kingman's motivation to make a marker that will sell them less than jsut about anything else that they make? I mean, you can go buy a cheap Spyder for around $60ish or so. So do you want them to make you a DT derivative for about $100? No offense, that will go over really well. Not.

If you want them to make it on the level of the MR3 or RS, then it is going to be around $400+. Probably more, as this is a specialty niche item. You may find more people out there selling rocket launchers, but the ammo is reusable often times. Paintballs aren't.

I wish you luck, if you think that you can design a better mousetrap, and make it affordable, then by all means, you should get on it. But I just don't see you being able to convince any of the other big paintball marker manufacturers of making a specialty niche item like a version of a DT, which Spec Ops did make commercially for a bit, in any kind of a number. You are pretty much stuck with specialty shops that are making one-offs.