[weeebeep]

WOW!!! All you neh sayers dont know what your talking about, also some of the yes sayers are wrong too!!

first, reguardless of accuracy, if your barrel is clean and your sight is zeroed in there is nothing to boost your accuracy any better than a sight!! also a 2x is VERY usefull! i know this because i was trying to folow where enimy players were going on the other end of the field and i remember SPECIFICALY wishing i had a 3X! makes it much easier to folow them. also i will gues that anyone who says magnification is a "no-no" BOTH doesnt shoot with both eyes open, AND hasnt tried using a 2x or so. YOU SHOOT WITH BOTH EYES OPEN TO DECREASE THE TIME YOUR LOOKING FOR YOUR TARGET WITH YOUR SIGHT! also when shooting you KEEP both eyes open because if someone or something (ex a moth on your lense) causes you to loose sight of the target you need to find it again. this also DRAMATICALY decreases your chances of tunnel vision!

now that i'm done with the angry portion, the barrels! now its true that some rifles without rifling were called muskets, but muskets werent semi automatic AND they loaded from the tip of the barrel. but after they added a breech to it so it could be loaded sitting, it was a breech loader. not a rifle OR musket. after the invention of the magazine AND hopper for guns (hoppers only being used in the military once) they were called rifles. of course the hoppers and mags couldnt be invented without the advent of the brass cartridge, thus single shots that used cartrages are rifles and (regardless of firearm status) anything that loaded from a hopper or a magazine was also a rifle. but it had to have one thing! (as stated by the atf) a stock!

now some barrels for paintballs have rifling too so dont discriminate. but if your barrel has consistent insides and the ball isnt flattened against the whatever it is with the stick, it stays round (thats a big one) and its relitively accurate. also theres about 120 years of tecnoledgy between here and there so it is actualy (for its range) accurate. g2g, hope this was enlightening, bye

[Needmorepaintball]

Personally, I have a HH Battlestikxx kit (which is a Rifled Barrel) and an Armson Reddot Sight, and I can honestly say that the sight help 300% on that first shot. If I go unseen, I can put 3 balls right on top of each other at a fairly good distance, and within a reasonable area at higher distances. I would not go onto the field without my sight, but that is me. I just love being able to put that dot on somone (without them knowing of course ) and being able to pull the trigger and KNOWING where the ball is splat.

And Weeebeep above me here is exactly right when he says that shooting with both eyes open helps dramatically. My sight requires that, thats why I bought it. I've caught a couple of flankers while I was sighting in on someone bc I had both my eyes open, I wouldnt have seen them had I been aiming with one eye.

[ghostinthewood]

So basically what your telling me is that if you point your rifle and hold it still your going to hit what your aiming for? RIfles have a greater range than a paintball gun so we have to think about the carteidges down range.

Theres a lot of human error involved in accuracy. I shoot a .22 Magnum for squrriels and varmit since a lot of what I do is at close range and gun laws prohibit anything more poweful. In fact, the last squrriel i shot was at 4yrds. I went shooting a bit back with a whole new box of bullets and I hadnt shot in awhile so i figured i needed the practice. So i killed the clay pigeon box that i empties with my shotgun moments before.



The picture should tell you all you need to know unless you cant read my hand writing. When the hammer hit the pin I had my sights on the center of the target. Now you can see my gun is zero'd for 100 so its a bit high. Now I'm not an expert shooter but I can tell you right now a couple of those shots werent human error. Unless of course, you think it to be my fault I got on target quickly and shot kinda fast and heated the barrel a bit.

I could ask why snipers want an M40 Chandler over an M16 and the answers could range from its easier to carry, easier to take care of, better sights, etc. but the majority will say its more accurate. Of course, there are different rounds they are shooting so lets look at an PSG90 vs a Dragonuv. Most people here will at least recognize the Dragonuv. People see it in video games and at gun shows so its pretty common. Now, despite its claim to fame as being a sniper rifle, its outdated now. Its standards arent up to standard now. They both have the same action and the same cartridge but the PSG90 is more accurate. Its Sub-MOA while the Dragonuv is 2MOA. That is not shooter error that vice and mechanical trigger pull. So, downrange you could expect to hit a melon with a PSG90 but not a dragonuv. Put the same sights on them and it wont matter.

On the matter of raising your gun up an arching your shots, think about zeroing in your rifle. You move the crosshairs. If you had your gun straight while you moved the elevation knob then it would be off target, so you have to raise or lower your gun to get it on target, even though its just slightly. Also think about all of the 'ballistic' rifle scopes that are slowly gaining popularity and the Mil-Dot system that Military and LE sharpshooters use. They are all forms of 'hold off' which is basically knowing how your bullet flys and arcing it accordingly. I know when I use a paintball marker with some optic on it i try to figure the hold off based on body parts. "Aim above their head, hit the marker at their waste,'' ''Aim for the marker because I'm close, and hit them in the chest.''

So basicaly, rifles arent even perfect. Your guessing that they'll hit as well. Of course, its a much better guess but they've been around in america alone for 10x longer than paintball markers, so they've had a head start.

So in conclusion rifles AND markers arent perfect, but it helps to have an aiming point.

[weeebeep]

ghostinthewoods, you are my GOD!

Finaly i see someone else in here that knows what theyre talkin about!

[Reb]

To be perfectly honest, I agree completely with the poster's father. By now some of you know where I come from and are groaning in pain at whats to come....but too bad.


Ghostinthewood made a great point when talking about the human error that is involved in accuracy. He also mentions the flaws of both rifles and markers when talking about accuracy.

Said flaws are more commonplace when talking about paintball markers simply because we are talking about the limitations put on the marker in terms of velocity and the ballistics characteristics of the projectiles that they fire. The paintball weighs around 3 grams, is spherical and filled with a liquid that will shift when fired, which will inhibit accuracy.

Someone mentioned smoothboore muskets (the term 'smoothboore rifles' is erronious and an oxymoron) Have you ever seen a smoothbore musket with a scope on it? Negative. The effective range of these weapons is only about 150 yards, eliminating the need for such optical enhancements.

Someone else will mention shotgun slugs. To which I reply that their maximum effective range is only about 100 yards. Someone once likened putting a scope on a shotgun was like putting racing tires on a school bus. People still do it, but if you're taking a shot at 100 yards, you shouldn't need a scope.

Regardless of the debates that accompany real firearms, we are talking about something completely different.


The paintball marker has an EFFECTIVE range of about 100 FEET. 1/3 the distance that a Shotgun will shoot, and 2/5 of the distance that even the most primitive muskets were capable of.

What am I driving at? Simply that at the range that you're going to be shooting a paintball, there is no need to mount a scope on your paintball marker. Sights even, while they don't offer much in the way of magnification aren't any more helpful than the stock sights on any marker because of the range capabilities.

They aren't necessary, and to sight in a scope on a paintball marker is ludicrous at best since the factors that can effect the flight of a paintball at ANY range other than point blank are numerous and random.

Imperfections in an already imperfect shape.
Broken paint in the barrel
Velocity spikes
Wind
Obstructions (foliage, etc)

Any of these factors, as well as any number of others will (note the definitive WILL) effect any of your shots, and their effects will be enhanced with any increase in range, rendering any scope tweaking pretty much useless.

Even the lowly .22 rifle has better luck with a scope on it since the muzzle velocity of the rifle is so much higher than that of the paintball marker that it allows for fewer things to effect the round.

All other arguments in this debate are moot as far as I can tell, because you just can't refute the science behind it.

[Steed]

Actually scopes are awaist the range of a paintball is only 200' and aiming at that range you're arch is so high the scope is useless... Now SIGHTS on the other hand like reddots and irons are for the simple stated points all over this thread. But maged scopes for any use other than seeing at range is useless in paintball...

[BIG_O7]

I agree to a point with what has been said about "scopes" being useless for long range shooting that simply doesnt exist in paintball. But to say that zeroing a sight of any kind is ludicrous I dont agree with. First i dont have factory sights, and with a stock I loose the ability to sight well down the barrel, so the use of a sight even a low power scope is benificial it brings my point of aim back to my eye location. Second, i have a scope (3x9-32) and it is Zeroed at 20yds (60 feet). Why, it goes back to number 1, my scope is above the barrel, so the point of aim according to the scope is far to high, and i would be hitting the ground in front of the target so i get the sight close. sure im not going to hit the exact center of the crosshairs everytime but i will be with in inches of it. for me having a sight helps me to maximize each shot placement. if i can hit my target at my "zero" range say 85% of the time i will save money in paint. Now i am by no means saying that any body is wrong, and 100% of anything you do to your marker is personal preference any way its truely up to the individual and what they want, I have a scope, i do a lot of recon work, and i like it beter then most other sights ive used......so for now lets all agree to disagree..........

This post has been edited by BIG_O7: 09 May 2007 - 02:58 PM

[Lothen]

I am just getting back into paintball after a long hiatus. My hobby in between paintball was building AR15's. I learned allot about rifles and accuracy in that time, and am currently learning about a paintball markers capabilities.

To get a projectile sighted in...

The bore of the projectile launcher, be it rifle or paintball gun, typically sits below the sighting apparatus. To keep this simple, we will assume that the optic of choice sits low over the bore. When the projectile is sighted in to the optic, there are two points where the projectile will intersect with the operators line of sight, (Which is an invisible line that follows the users, and thus the optics, line of sight). The second point of intersection is typically the zero. All projectiles, whether rifle or paint gun, are lobbed / arced to the target. Sighting in an AR15 at twenty five yards results in a zero at two hundred yards. Why? Because at 25 and 200 yards, the bullets flight path intersects with the users line of sight. At ranges below 25 yards, the bullet will hit below the zero / line of sight. In between 25 and 200 yards, the bullet will hit above the line of sight. Past 200 yards, the bullet will begin to strike lower than the line of sight as gravity brings it back down. Rifles and paintguns are not lasers.

Lets apply this to a paintgun. Since the velocity of said projectile is so low, the first point of intersection will be pretty close to the bore of the gun. I am willing to bet the first point of intersection will be around anywhere from six to ten feet depending on the zero. Having the first point of intersection at say, five or six feet means that the optic is sighted in so that it is causing the user to arc the paintball gun pretty heavily to reach the line of sight. Using a point of intersection at say ten feet means that the paintball is rising from the barrel at less of an arc (while at the same time moving 280 fps) and the arc of the paintgun is less. Basically what all this amounts to is that when you sight in a reference point for a projectile gun for elevation, you are literally getting the optic to help you tilt the barrel of the launcher to a certain angle. With a point of intersection at six feet opposed to ten feet, it means that you have to tilt the barrel up more for the marker to meet the first point of intersection so close (at six feet). When at ten feet, you don't have to tilt the markers barrel to as high a degree, and thus it intersects at your first point farther down range.

Review: If you take a marker who's first point of intersection is six feet, and a marker whos first point of intersection is at ten feet, and then aim them at the same object in the distance, which marker will launch the projectile the farthest?

The marker with the first point of intersection at six feet will launch the projectile the farthest, because its barrel is tilted to a greater degree than marker number two, resulting in a greater arc of the paintball.

Now we are moving on to our second point of intersection, typically what we call our "zero."
Lets say you set up your zero at the furthest effective range of your marker. Lets say 120 feet just to exaggerate a bit. To reach that range, you have to lob paint. I mean rainbow arcs that stuff. Its good and all if you can hit at that range, but what is happening in between that range? Lets say a guy jumps out of the bushes at 60 feet and exposes his head. You put the dot on him (remember, the dot and your line of sight are the same) and fire. What is the paintball going to do if it is sighted in at extreme range? Its going to miss him by flying over his head. Your paintgun is still sighted in to shoot at long distances, and since you have to lob paint to get at those distances, anything in between will hit high. In this case, waay high.

What is a good zero? I don't know what that magic number is for paintguns. Lets keep thinking about it though.

There is a zero for an AR15 that is known as the battle zero. Guess what? Its 25 and 200 yards. Aim at the chest of an enemy at any range in between 25 and 200 yards and they will get hit, but you are still lobbing/arcing a projectile. So at 25, you gonna hit the guy right where you aimed. (keep in mind we are going to aim in the same spot everytime) push your enemy to 100 yards and shoot, and the bullet will hit him, but it will hit high. Due to the velocity of the ar15, it will hit high at 100 yards with a 25/200 zero, but only a few inches since it's projectile moves so fast. At 200, you are dead on again. At 250-300 you are going to be hitting low.

As per a paintgun, it may be advantageous to find a zero that works in a similar way. Find a zero that works at the ranges you typically encounter. Find a zero that will hit the enemy player each time you aim at his chest. It may hit high or low depending on his range, but a hit is a hit. The window of these ranges are going to be much smaller due to how slow a paintball moves. I don't know what that window is like or if it is even plausible. I just know that, ideally, a zero such as the one described above (a battle zero) is what you want. It gives the greatest amount of range at which the paintgun will put a paintball on the target at your line of sight. Compare that hypothetical zero to the longballer zero... the ball is arced soo much that someone in between 5 and 120 yards is safe if you aim at them with your optic and line of sight because the paintball is going to go right over their head. Not a very good zero.

Getting a flatline system makes for the greatest window of range in a sighted in marker simply because it has a flatter trajectory. Your battle zero will have a much bigger window of hits compared to a non flatline system per elevation... That is if you could get your flatline to be as accurate as your smoothbore system. I hear that's hard.

Now that we have the elevation stuff out of the way, and our hypothetical zero... (our battle zero for a paintgun) lets apply accuracy.

Think of accuracy as a cone shaped funnel from the beginning of your barrel to your target. The cone is smallest where the barrel begins, and largest where your paintguns projectiles start hitting the ground. This cone also follows an arc. What you need to do is find out, at what range, that cone of your accuracy and the arc of your marker in concordance with your zero are in concert with each other. IE, find that point where they work together to give you consistent hits at a certain range every time on... lets say a mask.

Every marker/barrel combo/paint has that magic area. For some guns, it will be so close that you would have no need for an optic. (think old field rental model 98s running co2 / liquid) For other, more consistent markers... you may find that this magic area (and your associated reference point / line of sight) is at a range far enough that using the optic results in hits sooner and faster than does walking the paint over. That's what you purchased the optic for no? Good.

Eliminate your variables to decrease the cone of inaccuracy... Make that cone smaller and thus more accurate. Good paint to bore match, consistent amount of gas behind the ball each time, good paint. Your velocity is set, so you cant do much with your range / elevation. Find a good zero that gets you hits at ranges you typically encounter. Make that cone smaller.

That's all I have to say about that.

This post has been edited by Lothen: 12 May 2007 - 08:51 AM

[customsnipernj]

go stand 150 feet away from me. give me one shot. tell me if paintball guns are not accurate hehehe it will hit you

[Reb]

customsnipernj, on May 15 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

go stand 150 feet away from me. give me one shot. tell me if paintball guns are not accurate hehehe it will hit you

I'll give you 5 shots, and bet even IF I do get hit, I'm not cleaning any paint off me. And if I'm not cleaning paint, what the hell is the point of a shot like that anyway?

[PowerTower]

halo boys dad got owned!

[russc]

Just set the zero for a range at which the inconsistency of flight isn't a factor. For me, that's about 40 feet. This way, those shots that you absolutely should be making, you can make in one shot. You shouldn't be taking longball shots in the first place. They're a waste of paint.

[Argelmcgee]

Reb...

Your points are good, but your history is off. First of all there were no sights more elaborate than an ironsight when muskets and rifles were used. Think about it... You didn't see sights on muskets, but you also didn't see sights on rifles (which were MUCH more accurate, due to rifling of course). Even the sharpshooters just didn't have any sights to use. Secondly, if I'm wrong about that, then there's another reason why they didn't use sights...

The tactics they used the muskets for didn't need sights. Soldiers were discouraged to aim, they would have 10 in a row point their muskets in the general direction of the enemy and fire, then the next row, and so on. They also had only one shot, so it didn't matter how long they set up the shot, no matter if they were pointed dead on, the chances of it hitting were very low. We can at least fire 10 shots, and it will hit in the general circle if we're aiming correctly.

[Midnight Phenom]

sight on a paintball gun are not amazing...UNLESS! you snipe witch you prolley do since your in this section...it basicly improves first-second shot accuracy...cuz you wont use it in a 50 50 firefight cuz it takes to long..so sights are for 2 things

1)first/second shot accuracy
2)looks


thats about it..

The Midnight Phenom

Reb, on May 16 2007, 07:32 AM, said:

customsnipernj, on May 15 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

go stand 150 feet away from me. give me one shot. tell me if paintball guns are not accurate hehehe it will hit you

I'll give you 5 shots, and bet even IF I do get hit, I'm not cleaning any paint off me. And if I'm not cleaning paint, what the hell is the point of a shot like that anyway?

hey go to webdog or youtube and watch shooting from a concelaed position part 2...he shoots a mask from about 280 FEET AWAY AND HITS! it doesn't break but he said it was a few months old and ..c'mon 280 friken feet...so i guarentee you it would pop at 200 feet easily..

[GooberP]

Ok, here's another point.

A sight is a tool. A tool can be the best addition in the world, or your biggest crutch. It all depends on how you use it.

If you buy a sight thinking "this will make me more accurate!", you are probably going to be wrong. But if you buy a sight thinking "this could HELP me be more accurate".. you are on the right track. As with any tool, just owning one won't improve anything, using it properly might. Of course, using the right tool for the right job helps a whole lot more.

If your are consistantly missing first shots, and you have the patience and discipline to actually use a sight, this will probably help you. If not, it's just eye candy on your marker.

This sounds to me more like the same debate : "Will fancier tools make me a better player?". The answer is maybe. Depends on how you use them.